tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post415356507895732274..comments2023-08-22T09:13:46.308-04:00Comments on Computing Ignorance: My Personal Perspective on Canadian Health CareMozglubovhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04803674886685831282noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-23782789617817046542009-08-13T11:09:10.263-04:002009-08-13T11:09:10.263-04:00this is a pretty good example of the problems I ha...<a href="http://barefootbum.blogspot.com/2009/06/public-option.html" rel="nofollow">this is a pretty good example of the problems I have with privatized health care from a theoretical perspective</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03701486643606672348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-52328523675290946552009-08-12T18:55:37.312-04:002009-08-12T18:55:37.312-04:00Freddy, I know this is a late response so I don...Freddy, I know this is a late response so I don't know if you are still around, but I've put up a <a href="http://mozglubov.blogspot.com/2009/08/passing-torch.html" rel="nofollow">recent post regarding your comments</a> (or you can directly just go to my <a href="http://cornucrapia.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-and-market-failure.html" rel="nofollow">friend's post on market failures</a>).Mozglubovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04803674886685831282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-18217303158695126472009-08-04T10:25:01.583-04:002009-08-04T10:25:01.583-04:00Ged/Mozglubov,
The first part of my message was ba...Ged/Mozglubov,<br />The first part of my message was basically acknowledging that no system was perfect, and we can keep pointing to the bad cases as a reason to make a change. <br />I then pointed to a bad example that I was aware of in Canada, from personnel contacts, for contrast. Of course you have no reason to believe that story, anymore then I have to believe you Mozglubov (I am not calling you a lair, I do not know you and thus can not make that claim) as we do not know each other and can not verify each other identity. All we have to point to is what each of us posted. This inability to verify each other is a fact of the web.<br />Ged, you mentioned the WHO report that shows Canada has a better health care system then us. Reports like that have to be taken with a grain of salt, and really can only be used to judge changes overtime, but not make direct comparisons. The main reason for this is that the data used to make that report is self reporting and there is no standards set on what data is used to answer the question. For example the US treats all infants that are delivered alive, but then die as a infant death. Other countries say if the infant dies in the first 24 hours it is a still born. We also tend to detect cancer earlier, which increase survival rates. Whereas other countries tend to detect it later, and fewer survive. Basically those report claim to be comparing apples to apples, but they are really comparing apples to oranges.<br />Finally my belief that our system if better, but not perfect, comes from what the system it is based on. All my reading of history, philosophy, and economics show me that a system not based on free markets is doomed to fail. I know a lot of people in this country point to the failures of the free market in this country. The problem is that while we have a freer market then most, our markets are not really free. Whenever we have problems in our markets you can trace it back to government involvement. It is for that major reason that when offered the choice of our current system and it current level of government involvement and a system with more government involvement, I will choose the current system. If you offered me a system that had less government control of health care, I would support it whole heartily. I am not being offered that option, so I oppose what is being offered.<br />I have posted even more on what I believe the problems are with health care and health care reform on my blog in the following entries. Read it if you want.<br />http://fboisseau.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/my-plan-for-healthcare-reform/<br />http://fboisseau.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/why-obamas-healthcare-plan-scares-me/<br />http://fboisseau.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/what-the-health-care-plan-supporters-are-saying-about-our-concerns/<br />http://fboisseau.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/one-payer-or-nationalize-health-care-does-not-make-since/<br />http://fboisseau.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/peter-singers-piece-in-the-n-y-times/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-5923347944837789842009-08-03T18:26:50.917-04:002009-08-03T18:26:50.917-04:00Freddy,
I am not sure why you claim to acknowledg...Freddy,<br /><br />I am not sure why you claim to acknowledge both the good and bad points of different systems as well as personal experience motivated opinions, only to then flat out claim, "But I can not accept that the Canadian system is as good or even better then [<i>sic</i>] ours." Why not? I assume that ease of scheduling a hernia surgery is not the sole metric by which you measure a health system. <br /><br />Of course, this is beside the point, as my post is not equipped the make the argument that the Canadian health care system is better or worse than the American (even if I believe it is... to make a proper claim, I would need to more carefully define my metric and have actual statistics). All I was trying to do was make the point that the actual claims being made by politicians and journalists (or commentators, as some of them claim to be in order to avoid the unpleasant task of fact checking) are misleading and disingenuous at best on even a superficial level of examination. While you may think that my perspective on health care is flawed, I still do not think you should dismiss the possibility that Canada has a better health care system based on a single anecdote.Mozglubovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04803674886685831282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-42037760343176066892009-08-03T17:15:18.162-04:002009-08-03T17:15:18.162-04:00Wow, Freddy. That one story really changed my min...Wow, Freddy. That one story really changed my mind about everything. I was being horribly misled about Canadian healthcare by, y'know, Canadians. But one story from a guy who knows one guy who managed to get a surgery for a non-life-threatening condition moved up from the horrible future time of September to the immediate future (well, past, now) time of June has caused me to completely change my opinion of everything.<br /><br />Thanks for letting me know how much of a pain in the ass Canadian medicine is. I guess we should stick with the American system where only people with good jobs and/or lots of money get to actually have their problems treated and everyone else can go rot and die somewhere.<br /><br />Oh, and the World Health Organization rates Canada's system as the 30th best in the world. America's is 38th. So you don't have to acknowledge anything.Gedshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15047239425466517786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-61368392331106938832009-08-03T14:35:25.819-04:002009-08-03T14:35:25.819-04:00First, I acknowledge that every system has its bad...First, I acknowledge that every system has its bad and good points. I also will acknowledge that each person opinion is based on their experience. But I can not accept that the Canadian system is as good or even better then ours. I know some people in Calgary, and I talked to one recently. He needed an hernia surgery, and was initially told that he would have to wait until the end of September (the conversation was in June) for the surgery. He was later contacted and was told that if he could drop everything and come in a the end of June he could be operated on then, because someone canceled. He and another Canadian on the phone both were surprised that they someone would cancel, given the how long they would have to wait again to get the surgery. Fortunately for him, he had a job where he could drop everything for a few weeks for the surgery and recovery. I had a hernia surgery here in Richmond, VA a few years back and was able to get it scheduled in less than a month.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-80045530208833818432009-08-03T13:02:12.748-04:002009-08-03T13:02:12.748-04:00Glad to see intelligent discussion on this from pe...Glad to see intelligent discussion on this from people from all different systems. I'm not able to articulate much of what Calden did, so I'm glad to see this post and resulting comments.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12332701559197093798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-37690283710325322132009-08-03T12:25:05.832-04:002009-08-03T12:25:05.832-04:00Thank you Calden. As an American who knows better,...Thank you Calden. As an American who knows better, I apologize for both generalizations - to compare Canadian Health Care as an example for ObamaCare and to the "Don't let this happen to you" Poster Child characterizations.<br /><br />ObamaCare's "cherry picking" of talking points features does not help the argument nor does it come close to what the Canadian system really. Where the Canadian System has evolved to address the diverse needs of Canada's topography. It is the evolutionary template of change than should characterize Canadian Health Care and not the superficial generalization of "single payer." (Talk about throwing away the baby with the bath water.)<br /><br />At the same time "Choice" is two sided sword. If we choose to live on top of a mountain, we should have lowered expectation of snow plowing or garbage collection.<br /><br />If we eat, drink or smoke excessively, if we neglect our health, we lower our options. If we throw caution to the wind and live a riskier lifestyle, we reduce our health options. The choices people make cannot be distilled to a lowest common denominator entitlement by bureaucracy at a lowest possible price point. <br /><br />Oddly, with all the arguments I have seen which attempted to compare the US and Canadian systems, I am shocked at the most glaring contradiction of differences. Canadian Health Care is less expensive and that Canadian's are less likely to take legal action in malpractice. <br /><br />The threat of tort action turns out to be a far greater expense in the US than the actual litigation. Here the threat includes the cost of insurance as well as the added procedures that may be ordered "just in case" or "just to see for sure." <br /><br />We are therefore not just treating the ailment, we're trying to early detect too. The patient that turns out to be positive is a great success story and the system provided that patient with cost effective health care. <br /><br />For the negative resulting patients, these extra procedures/tests have elevated the cost of health care for everyone - both the positive patients as well as everyone who will never be treated for even the symptoms.<br /><br />Leave it to a left or right eyed politician to mandate closing the other eye to complete making their point/argument. Shame on all who don't keep both eyes open or fail to think about what they see.p.f. nocerahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544384743582576074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-38714179846218787672009-08-03T12:12:18.963-04:002009-08-03T12:12:18.963-04:00A humorous, fact-based dissection of a few claims ...A humorous, fact-based dissection of a few claims against Canadian health care is here: http://bit.ly/2Z7ckf.<br /><br />Regarding taxes, I think the highest personal tax bracket is just over 50%, so I'm not sure how anyone could come up with a 60%+ figure for health care...Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04635895894173634386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-81931030229630603152009-08-03T05:03:55.181-04:002009-08-03T05:03:55.181-04:00Glad I could help. Sometimes I do wish that our g...Glad I could help. Sometimes I do wish that our government could somehow lodge a complaint, but I'm not sure anyone would listen. Plus, I'm not sure they would try right now, since we have the Conservatives in power right now...<br /><br />As for the repetition of "facts" making them harder to dismiss, that is definitely a problem (and something political parties figured out a while ago, hence answering with the talking points regardless of what question a candidate was asked). There are a couple psychological properties that I think impact that, so perhaps I will remember to do a post on it once things calm down a bit here. I always like getting post ideas!Mozglubovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04803674886685831282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-57901522042356446302009-08-02T19:53:52.515-04:002009-08-02T19:53:52.515-04:00This is excellent, thank you for doing this! One ...This is excellent, thank you for doing this! One thing I hardly ever hear from is a Canadian perspective on health care, so I did enjoy reading this.<br /><br />I had formulated answers to these questions (or, rather statements) in my head before i sent them to you, and I was glad to see that we largely lined up in our answers.<br /><br />I kid you not, this is getting insane, Obama is starting to have to answer questions about whether or not his health care plan will kill old people (because that is how they do it in Canada, so the questions go). Frankly, if I was the Canadian ambassador, I would file a formal compliant with the Republican party, and the various national news media in this country, complaining of defamation of national character or something. I mean, you people up there may say "about" in a hilarious and different way, but you are not unfeeling backward savages, which is how I feel like the Republican party makes you out to be. <br /><br />A quick ER horror story for you. And I am well insured by my father currently (but I will lose my insurance in about 10 months). I have bad knees. Rather, they walk just fine, but any excessive running (particularly down hill) or jumping and twisting, and they are easy to dislocate. It is the worst pain I have ever been in. Anyway, the last time I dislocated my knee (I have done this multiple times) I was in the emergency room for an hour and a half before even a nurse saw me. She then told me she would be right back with some pain pills. 2 hours later she returned. Then, about 30 minutes to an hour after that, I saw a doctor would took xrays and such, then fitted me with a straight leg brace. This entire time though, I was in the waiting room crying in pain.<br /><br />Of course, this is not necessarily an indictment of our health care system. I just happened to get hurt on a busy day at a busy time. Two summers ago when I broke both my arms, I went into the ER, they took my vitals and then immediately sent me back and I saw a doctor within about 10 minutes (though, with the pain meds and xrays and such I was in there for about 3 hours, though was being treated that entire time). This however was probably because when I walked into the ER on that day, there was exactly one other person in the waiting room.<br /><br />Finally, I will say this. Living in America with out media system can be tough. Because good information is just so rare. And even I, single payer leftist, find myself fighting knee jerk reactions to believe the fear mongering promoted by the media. These claims are just repeated so often, and taken for granted even, that when you are immersed in this stuff, it almost becomes instinctual for a person (me) to buy into or believe the claims. I have to actually do work and take time to think through them to catch myself from accepting bullshit. Maybe that can be another blog post at some put, if it fits in with neuroscience, how hearing claims over and over again, even if you know they are wrong to begin with, can slowly grind you down so that you actually have to think hard to convince yourself that the claims that you know not to be true, are in fact not true. Anyway, in my own personal internal struggle, this post helps.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04103446055814911491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-196547498235237605.post-39573726123040849762009-08-01T11:09:12.616-04:002009-08-01T11:09:12.616-04:00Cheers! Bureaucracy has almost nothing to do with ...Cheers! Bureaucracy has almost nothing to do with the practice of health care in Canada. As is said, the government distributes the funds: individual physicians make decisions as to treatment. Wait times are an ephemeral concept. Many people now have joint replacements: is the wait time from the moment the specialist says " this will need doing" or from the time he/she says "now is the time to do this". If the former the wait may be two years, if the latter it is a matter of days or weeks: and hip replacement is not life threatening. <br />Robert did not even ask about the cost. I am the person who had the heart operation: immediately before that I had a femoral artery by-pass. I spent roughly six weeks in hospital: operations, intensive care units, etc. I emerged and didn't pay one cent for any of the treatment. Fourteen years later, I have my health and my money. I am happy to pay taxes for such treatment. And the taxes do not amount to the percentage of my tax dollar mentioned. Something strikes me as extremely ludicrous when the mention of the word "socialist" changes a nation of 340 million people into a mass of unthinking blogs.Gnoreply@blogger.com